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Author Topic: Game Design/Balancing Thread  (Read 16574 times)

jasonC

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2015, 06:54:17 am »
That's so much reading tho.

You received a well-deserved Toogs for this post.   Skizzzgasm
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RadicalFuzz

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2015, 08:45:04 am »
I still feel bad for Forge after what happened in EOW. Pimp gets my role, picks her, and she's Medic. Night 1 kill.

You could make <MP> be the only one to receive a Last Gasp. Or, upon time of their death, they receive one random UC result to put in a LG, to alleviate some pressure from the UC without increasing the numbers. It also directs the role to die in midgame before UC claims for maximum effectiveness.

I don't like the concept of "text messages" in your game Forge. I think that should remain as a one-time ability through the GM (re: Marvel Avengers) or should stay in Arena entirely. It introduces private information to every player in the game. Another issue is the two roles that could be "peeking" at the texts, 10th and 11th. 11th, even with his 25% chance, gets a crazy amount of information out of seeing that Fuzz sent a text to Alpha. It tells him they're not both Mafia, and they're not Lovers, before even considering the content of the message. Also there's no way in hell that you want to RNG every time someone sends a text, it's way too much to deal with, similar to Fire Emblem.

For the roles, I think it's interesting to have a Civilian-based Poisoner and the guilt-based Vigi. He can act as a nighttime lynch, to eliminate anyone who seems extremely suspicious due to end of day results.

For Mao, the "if Hinata would die you die in her place", does Mao know Hinata's identity? Also, the concept of having that cleared civilian in Hinata (once the player should die but Mao dies instead that's a confirm) seems lacking. There's no interaction possible, no way to play the role objectively better. Hinata would die, then Mao dies, and Hinata is civ. I really like Hinata's ability, though, if she's civilian, because of the risks involved. 10th is probably the best candidate for the extra stock if he's civilian, but there's no way for civ-Hinata to know that.

One last thing, if the Mafia are going to be randomly generated after everyone gets their roles then I think it's fine as is. But if one player gets their role and gets to recruit 4 others, there are some pretty ridiculous combinations. Mafia Hinata plus 11th or 6th is a ton of information, while 3rd with 4 stocks denies information for the first 4 night phases or Nishijimi with 3 stocks can effectively nullify civilian role-claiming.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 09:45:36 am by RadicalFuzz »
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Missing Person

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2015, 08:52:37 am »
She was night one enforce, night two kill.

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Bious

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2015, 03:35:26 pm »
Whoops! I quoted instead of modify!

Well here I will talk about the changes to DR. First off, you may notice a lot of nerfs compared to the other one. I didn't exactly gimp everyone, but some got beat harrrrd.

Secondly, the Val gimmick has changed. As long as they are alive the trip kill can be pulled off infinitely, but there is a cooldown.

Third the Mafia ranks have increased by 1. 32 players total, 6 (or 7) Mafia.

Fourth, night priority has changed greatly.

Finally, no gasps.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 03:52:03 pm by Bious »
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Bious

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2015, 03:44:09 pm »
Another new DR role:

Soda:

Civ/Mafia- Vote rigging: Your votes count two times instead of one. Once per game you may amp it up to three for a phase. This is not reflected in the tally.

And another:

Akane Owagi:

Civ: Acrobatic Assist- Pick a player at night. If they use a night action it's priority will be increased by one in the order list.

Mafia: Breast Demon- Pick a target at night. If they use an action on you they will be killed.
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Bious

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2015, 10:21:22 am »
@✰Alpha✰ can you show me what Godot used to make the DR 1 cards? I'll reveal Sonia's card if you do...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 10:23:44 am by Bious »
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✰Alpha✰

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2015, 10:33:54 am »
@✰Alpha✰ can you show me what Godot used to make the DR 1 cards? I'll reveal Sonia's card if you do...

He never contacted me about the cards, but it looks like he used pictures found throughout the Danganronpa Wiki:

http://danganronpa.wikia.com/wiki/File:Kyouko_introduction_anime_EP1_HQ.png

Those are images from the anime though. The versions that use the in-game sprites can be found here:

http://img.neoseeker.com/v_image.php?type=news&articleid=24027&image=7
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 10:51:27 am by ✰Alpha✰ »
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Bious

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2015, 10:40:42 am »
Yeah, I may use either the sprites or official artwork and make it work.

I'll post Sonia and someone else later.
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✰Alpha✰

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2015, 10:51:48 am »
Updated the link so that nobody else ever has to look at that abysmal blog ever again.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2015, 10:58:56 pm »
@ForgeDigger - Sent you a PM regarding your game like we talked about.

Now is anyone gonna help me with Teen Wolf? Now's your chance to give input on what you wanna see before I run it here. :eli:

@Missing Person @✰Alpha✰ @Jan @descuffphoenix
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 10:59:47 pm by Cobalt »
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XthAtGAm3RGuYX

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2015, 10:33:47 am »
I want to ask you guys about a mechanic and your opinions on it.

Previous GM's here, how do you feel about
1. Player A gets lynched/nightkilled
2. Later on, Player B requests to sub out of the game
3. Because you have no subs, replace Player B with Player A who was previously already in the game and died

????????
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DrWilgy

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2015, 10:56:31 am »
I see some immediate problems. I havent GM'd but the things that I see are:
1. You can't let someone who was a power role sub in.
2. You can't allow the sub into the loser's lounge.
3. How do you score someone who changes to another team? You can either force the sub onto their previous team which would confirm thier alignment, or you may accidentally give them alternate incentive that may affect the team they join.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 10:57:03 am by DrWilgy »
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God damn wiggles, that's one of the best deaths I've had.

XthAtGAm3RGuYX

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2015, 11:36:13 am »
I see some immediate problems. I havent GM'd but the things that I see are:
1. You can't let someone who was a power role sub in.
2. You can't allow the sub into the loser's lounge.
3. How do you score someone who changes to another team? You can either force the sub onto their previous team which would confirm thier alignment, or you may accidentally give them alternate incentive that may affect the team they join.

I'm not asking because it's something I want to do. I am vehemently opposed to it as a matter of fact. I'm asking because it's something people do elsewhere and I'm wondering if I'm crazy for being the only one there against that mechanic.

I really dont like it because you can kill somebody off as a maifa, then they sub in later for somebody else. Ya know half the purpose of having a night kill is to get rid of people permanently. A resurrection condition is one thing, but just coming in on a second life for free is completely fucked up to me. So you get rid of a problem player or somebody that leads discussion right? Think the problem is gone? Lol nope. They back in the game now. You essentially waste a nightkill at that point because the person they subbed in for was probably inactive in the first place. This has only happened in Bible mafia for me and I dont know if it gets done for members of the mafia, but it seems way more civ sided than anything.

Plus its just wrong that you can get killed, observe the game without worry of playing the game, and then come in with fresh eyes. Plus you get ANOTHER chance to win. Whoever gets to sub in after death essentially is just a bulletproof role. Die once and then come back amongst the living.
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Synonym

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2015, 01:56:41 pm »
I would abuse the fuck out of that mechanic, so that probably means it's a bad idea.
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DrWilgy

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2015, 02:09:47 pm »
Ok, we are in agreement. Subbing like that is retarded. I'm really thinking that I won't allow subs in games that I run.
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God damn wiggles, that's one of the best deaths I've had.

Augustus

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2015, 06:22:33 pm »
Yeah, I was checking out some of their past games and saw that was a thing they did. It blew my mind because it's definitely not something you should do (inb4 reminder of bad Augustus GM'ing).

So you get rid of a problem player or somebody that leads discussion right? Think the problem is gone? Lol nope. They back in the game now. You essentially waste a nightkill at that point because the person they subbed in for was probably inactive in the first place.

This is pretty much the same argument I had given out when a dead player had wanted to sub in for a no-show during a game I ran on the forbidden forum. It is a horrible, horrible thing to approve.
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XthAtGAm3RGuYX

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2015, 08:31:46 pm »
Oh yeah, in those same games, inscribed don't get mod killed at all.

In bible Mafia we killed a louder person. He game back into the game for player who had been inactive for 12 day/night cycles. That same player? He's the one who had the passive ability of skipping night phase if a Mafia gets lynched.

I wish I had the talent to make that shit up.
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fingersplints

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2015, 06:26:29 pm »
I see some immediate problems. I havent GM'd but the things that I see are:
1. You can't let someone who was a power role sub in.
2. You can't allow the sub into the loser's lounge.
3. How do you score someone who changes to another team?
You can either force the sub onto their previous team which would confirm thier alignment, or you may accidentally give them alternate incentive that may affect the team they join.

There isn't a loser's lounge or a scoring system.

I don't personally agree with the amount of replacing that has had to be going on, but I also feel that modkilling ruins game balance as well since power roles can just be wasted then too.

I have hosted a bunch and have never had to use a dead player, but I can understand the urge to do so. I used to be more opposed to the notion as well until I once got the opportunity to fill in for a friend and mafia teammate who needed to drop out for RL reasons. (something to keep in mind is that roles are not revealed in NKs like they are here, so that allowed this to be possible.)
I am also a firm believer that the host should be allowed to set the rules.

Perhaps the bigger issue that should be addressed is the amount of people needing to be replaced. Hosts already have a lot to do in a game they shouldn't have to find 10 replacements.
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RadicalFuzz

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2015, 06:40:46 am »
The GM should definitely have final say on the rules, that's not the question. The question is what is the ideal solution to any given problem. Lots of people needing to be replaced? I don't think allowing dead players to fill in is a good answer, even in a format where roles aren't revealed on death. Mafia kills and, to an extent, lynches are often based on the player. Want to make the thread quiet down? Kill the big posters. Want to make everyone doubt each other? Leave all the paranoid people alive. When you have the possibility of someone you actively killed coming back into the game a phase later dependent entirely on someone else's inability to assess whether they have the time to play and/or ability to not DQ themselves, then that's not an environment that I think is good. A smaller concern, also, is power roles having more information than they should when being brought back into the game. What if UC was killed night 2 but hadn't made his results public? He can't forget the results from night 1 (and 2 depending on order of operations), you can't just tell him he can't use that information that he has. Any games with a redirection or confusion-based role you have the same problem. if Witch targets Vigi onto himself (and roles aren't revealed on death) then the Vigi knows he was targeted while the public doesn't. If that player comes back into the game he has access to more information than was made public.

As for the core issue of having too many people drop out, I think we need to be clear with our time expectations and be more willing to not replace people past a certain point. A lot of what we had last game was people dropping out and being replaced by people who were dropping out. The responsibility to play needs to go with the person when they sign up or sub, and some of the players we've had sub recently don't take accountability for that. I'm talking specifically about players that sub and then don't do anything and get replaced or DQ'd themselves, not players that have difficulty as they play because their sub-ee was suspicious.
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✰Alpha✰

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2015, 07:47:26 am »
So here's a role card that didn't make it into the Revenge game.



I ended up scrapping it because I wanted Sammy to be a fun third-party character, not a role with lots of yomi. The final version of Sammy ended up being a lot less complicated and more of an enjoyable to play as role, while still maintaining a fairly difficult third-party win condition.

Just some insight into my design thought process.
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Cobalt

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2015, 12:23:59 pm »
The GM should definitely have final say on the rules, that's not the question. The question is what is the ideal solution to any given problem. Lots of people needing to be replaced? I don't think allowing dead players to fill in is a good answer, even in a format where roles aren't revealed on death. Mafia kills and, to an extent, lynches are often based on the player. Want to make the thread quiet down? Kill the big posters. Want to make everyone doubt each other? Leave all the paranoid people alive. When you have the possibility of someone you actively killed coming back into the game a phase later dependent entirely on someone else's inability to assess whether they have the time to play and/or ability to not DQ themselves, then that's not an environment that I think is good. A smaller concern, also, is power roles having more information than they should when being brought back into the game. What if UC was killed night 2 but hadn't made his results public? He can't forget the results from night 1 (and 2 depending on order of operations), you can't just tell him he can't use that information that he has. Any games with a redirection or confusion-based role you have the same problem. if Witch targets Vigi onto himself (and roles aren't revealed on death) then the Vigi knows he was targeted while the public doesn't. If that player comes back into the game he has access to more information than was made public.

As for the core issue of having too many people drop out, I think we need to be clear with our time expectations and be more willing to not replace people past a certain point. A lot of what we had last game was people dropping out and being replaced by people who were dropping out. The responsibility to play needs to go with the person when they sign up or sub, and some of the players we've had sub recently don't take accountability for that. I'm talking specifically about players that sub and then don't do anything and get replaced or DQ'd themselves, not players that have difficulty as they play because their sub-ee was suspicious.
My subs have 100% success rate so idk what kind of flops everyone is allowing in here  :votebot:
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Matt

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2015, 09:04:28 am »
I'm about to run this Lewis Carroll mafia on a different forum, and I wanted to run it by everyone here to see if there were any problems I didn't see.  It will be a 20-25 player game.

Roles with abilities:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Alice
Investigate: During Night, you may target one player. You will receive results that will reveal if that player is aligned with the Civilians or the Villains.

The White Rabbit
Protect: During Night, you may target one player. That player will be prevented from dying to kill attempts. You may not target yourself.

The Mad Hatter
Mad as a Hatter: During Night, you may target one player. Your target will be investigated, protected, enforced or killed; the effect is chosen at random. You will be informed of the results if your target is Investigated, but you will otherwise not be informed of the effects of your ability.

The Caterpillar
Wisdom: Your votes will always count three times. The extra votes will not be publicly displayed.

Tweedledum
Twin: You will start the game knowing the identity of your twin - Tweedledee. You are allowed to privately communicate with your twin as long as you both remain alive.

Tweedledee
Twin: You will start the game knowing the identity of your twin - Tweedledum. You are allowed to privately communicate with your twin as long as you both remain alive.

The White Queen
Vigilante: You begin the game with two stocks. During Night, you may use one stock to target a player. That player will be killed that Night. A stock is considered not used if the kill is prevented.

The Cheshire Cat
Survivor: You can only win by remaining alive after either a Civilian or Villain win.
Deceiver: If you are investigated, the player who targeted you will receive a Civilian result.
Elusive: You can only be killed by the mafia night kill and Beware of the Jabberwock.
A Grin without a Cat: During Night, you may submit one anonymous message to be posted publicly at the end of the phase.

The Queen of Hearts
Silence: During Night, you may target one player. That target will not be allowed to post or vote the following Day phase. You cannot target the same player consecutively.

The Red Queen
Enforce: You may target one player each night. That player's ability will be nullified for that phase.

The King of Hearts
Prankster: During Night, you may target one player. If that target is lynched the following day phase, their role and alignment will be revealed as, "The King of Hearts – Villain."
Deceiver: If you are investigated, the player who targeted you will receive a Civilian result.

The Duchess
Retaliate If you are lynched, you may target one of the players that voted for you. That player will be killed.

Jabberwocky
Beware the Jabberwock: During any point in the game, you may sacrifice yourself to kill one player. If used during a Day Phase, the phase will end and result in no lynch. This ability supersedes all others.

Ability priority list:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Mad as a Hatter* > Elusive > Enforce > A Grin without a Cat > Protect > Villain Kill > Vigilante > Deceiver > Investigate > A Grin without a Cat > Silence > Prankster

* Mad as a Hatter’s effect is determined first, and then the effect takes place in the order shown in the list (i.e. Alice’s Investigate and the Mad as a Hatter’s Investigate effect hold the same priority).  Mad as a Hatter’s killing effect is treated as a vigilante stock.

Twin, Survivor, Wisdom, Retaliate and Beware the Jabberwock do not occur in the normal ability priority order, and are not affected by any other ability.  Twin, Survivor and Wisdom are automatic abilities.  Retaliate is only activated when The Duchess is lynched, and can therefore only activate in a Day Phase.  Beware the Jabberwock can be activated at any time in the game prior to Jabberwocky’s death.

I have a few questions:
1. Should I nerf the Cheshire Cat?  I was looking at removing the Elusive ability, but keeping the other three, since Survivors often have a tough time winning on the forum where this game is being hosted.

2. Should I allow role-claiming?  The mafia currently don't have soup, but it's worth noting that the White Queen is the only civilian who can easily prove his or her role.  (The Cheshire Cat can in theory, but people could just as easily regard it as an attempt at framing or a lie)

3. If I allow role-claiming, should I include actual Lewis Carroll characters for all of the other roles without abilities (the Dormouse, Humpty Dumpty, etc.), or should I just have everyone else be a generic "Wonderland Civilian"?  Including actual characters would add more flavor, but might make it harder to give mafia convincing cover roles.  Having everyone without an ability be a "Wonderland Civilian" would remove flavor, but give the mafia perfectly acceptable cover roles.

4. Should I include the following ability, or would it be too broken?
Spoiler for Hiden:
The March Hare
Double-Time: During Night, you may target one player. That player may target an additional player (if their ability allows it) the following Night phase.

5. What are your thoughts on this in general?  Any suggestions, balance issues, etc.?

Thank you for your help!  :)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 09:04:48 am by Matt »
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✰Alpha✰

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2015, 09:57:55 am »
Quote
The Mad Hatter
Mad as a Hatter: During Night, you may target one player. Your target will be investigated, protected, enforced or killed; the effect is chosen at random. You will be informed of the results if your target is Investigated, but you will otherwise not be informed of the effects of your ability.

This role just looks straight-up frustrating. The player with this role's only ever going to target their suspects (to either Investigate, Enforce or Kill them), and there's only a 50/50 chance of it rolling an ability that will provide them with information (Investigate/Kill). Sure, there's the opportunity that they'll successfully Enforce them, but there'll most likely be enough doubt for them to just target the same person the following Night trying to get the Investigation/Kill.

I see where you're trying to go with this role, but I think the main problem I have with it is that it has 2 "negative" (Enforce/Kill), 1 "positive" (Protect) and 1 "neutral" (Investigate), so there's no reason not to target a suspect instead of a friendly. If you wanna make this a fully "random" role, make it 2 positive/2 negative or 1 positive/1 negative/2 neutral. Unless you are trying to get them to only target suspects, then I guess it's fine (apart from the thing I mentioned above).

Quote
The Cheshire Cat
Survivor: You can only win by remaining alive after either a Civilian or Villain win.
Deceiver: If you are investigated, the player who targeted you will receive a Civilian result.
Elusive: You can only be killed by the mafia night kill and Beware of the Jabberwock.
A Grin without a Cat: During Night, you may submit one anonymous message to be posted publicly at the end of the phase.

Does the Cheshire Cat count towards the Civ total?
If not, there's no reason for the Cheshire Cat to not RC Night 1, since the Mafia don't benefit from killing them.
If they do, they're still low on the Mafia priority list, since it's essentially confirming themselves as a roleless Civ.
I don't really understand why they're immune to lynches/Vigi, and why they can send a message each Night. Like assuming that they don't RC, what do you think they'd message? They don't care who wins and they don't have any special insight, so I don't see the value in it.

Quote
2. Should I allow role-claiming?  The mafia currently don't have soup, but it's worth noting that the White Queen is the only civilian who can easily prove his or her role.  (The Cheshire Cat can in theory, but people could just as easily regard it as an attempt at framing or a lie)

You can't really ban role-claiming. At the most, people are still gonna be soft claiming. It also prevents the yomi of claiming a role you don't have, which can be tactically used by both Civ and Mafia.

Quote
The March Hare
Double-Time: During Night, you may target one player. That player may target an additional player (if their ability allows it) the following Night phase.

Seems fine, considering that Civs have 4 player targeting abilities and Mafia have 3 (unless Jabberwocky counts). Just be aware that it'd be a fairly easy way for Civs to steamroll if they killed the Red Queen early (with Alice RCing to get double results unless Mafia sacrifices the Jabberwocky). That would depend on the Civ to Mafia ratio, though. Have you decided on your ideal Civ/Mafia count?
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2015, 10:39:11 am »
Lemme answer your questions first and then I'll move on to my observations.

Cheshire Cat is actually a really good third party but completely lynchproof is OP. Maybe give it one shot lynchproof instead of only being able to die from night kill or Jabberwock. And vigi stocks should be able to kill it. So a small nerf is in order.

Disallow role claiming, allow ability claiming. Someone can say "I'm the UC / detective" but not "I'm Alice." This way you can give the roleless civs all unique role cards as you asked, because mafia should be able to claim roleless civ without worrying about someone counterclaiming a random Lewis Carroll character. They can't claim their roleless civ character but they can claim roleless civ. Then you don't have to worry about cover roles and you can still have some uniqueness to the roleless civs for the purpose of writeups.

March Hare's ability could potentially break the game if given to a really good role hunter. Like if someone sniffs out the UC by day one/two then she has double investigations until the game is PoE'd. I don't think it's worth the risk of breaking your game, though it is a cool ability. Maybe give the March Hare limited stocks, like one or two, that only work when he targets someone with a targeting ability?

Okay, now for my observations / suggestions.

Duchess' Retaliate should be a normal bomb, wherein if she's killed by a vigi stock (Mad Hatter / White Queen) that person also dies. Limiting it to day lynches could potentially be a waste of a bomb if she dies at night.

You should maybe throw in a tracker role. Or a watcher. One or the other, not both.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2015, 12:30:59 pm »
Lemme answer your questions first and then I'll move on to my observations.

Cheshire Cat is actually a really good third party but completely lynchproof is OP. Maybe give it one shot lynchproof instead of only being able to die from night kill or Jabberwock. And vigi stocks should be able to kill it. So a small nerf is in order.

Disallow role claiming, allow ability claiming. Someone can say "I'm the UC / detective" but not "I'm Alice." This way you can give the roleless civs all unique role cards as you asked, because mafia should be able to claim roleless civ without worrying about someone counterclaiming a random Lewis Carroll character. They can't claim their roleless civ character but they can claim roleless civ. Then you don't have to worry about cover roles and you can still have some uniqueness to the roleless civs for the purpose of writeups.

March Hare's ability could potentially break the game if given to a really good role hunter. Like if someone sniffs out the UC by day one/two then she has double investigations until the game is PoE'd. I don't think it's worth the risk of breaking your game, though it is a cool ability. Maybe give the March Hare limited stocks, like one or two, that only work when he targets someone with a targeting ability?

Okay, now for my observations / suggestions.

Duchess' Retaliate should be a normal bomb, wherein if she's killed by a vigi stock (Mad Hatter / White Queen) that person also dies. Limiting it to day lynches could potentially be a waste of a bomb if she dies at night.

You should maybe throw in a tracker role. Or a watcher. One or the other, not both.
These all seem like good ideas.  I will change the Elusive ability to a one-shot lynchproof, add the March Hare (with only two stocks), make the Duchess a normal Bomb, disallow role-claiming and allow ability-claiming.  Why do you suggest adding a watcher or tracker?

This role just looks straight-up frustrating. The player with this role's only ever going to target their suspects (to either Investigate, Enforce or Kill them), and there's only a 50/50 chance of it rolling an ability that will provide them with information (Investigate/Kill). Sure, there's the opportunity that they'll successfully Enforce them, but there'll most likely be enough doubt for them to just target the same person the following Night trying to get the Investigation/Kill.

I see where you're trying to go with this role, but I think the main problem I have with it is that it has 2 "negative" (Enforce/Kill), 1 "positive" (Protect) and 1 "neutral" (Investigate), so there's no reason not to target a suspect instead of a friendly. If you wanna make this a fully "random" role, make it 2 positive/2 negative or 1 positive/1 negative/2 neutral. Unless you are trying to get them to only target suspects, then I guess it's fine (apart from the thing I mentioned above).
I see what you're saying.  If I took out Enforce, then Protect-Investigate-Kill would be balanced, but I think having only three options removes a bit of the "mad" factor.  I was thinking of swapping Enforce for Jail, which is completely neutral by itself, but Jail would still be slightly "negative" seeing that the player would gain no information from it.  Maybe if I told the player at the end of the phase which action ended up taking place?  But that would also remove a bit of the "mad" factor.

What other set-ups and abilities would make it balanced, useful and informative, but still "mad"?  Is Investigate-Protect-Kill my best option?

Quote
Does the Cheshire Cat count towards the Civ total?
If not, there's no reason for the Cheshire Cat to not RC Night 1, since the Mafia don't benefit from killing them.
If they do, they're still low on the Mafia priority list, since it's essentially confirming themselves as a roleless Civ.
I don't really understand why they're immune to lynches/Vigi, and why they can send a message each Night. Like assuming that they don't RC, what do you think they'd message? They don't care who wins and they don't have any special insight, so I don't see the value in it.
Cheshire Cat does count toward the civ total, and I just nerfed the Elusive ability to a one-shot lynchproof.  I put it there so the Survivor has a better shot of winning, since there's only been one Survivor winner in thirteen games on GTF.

As for the message, it's partly flavor and partly meant to add a new dimension to the Survivor.  The Survivor doesn't care who wins, but it is in their best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible.  The ability to send an anonymous message every night will allow the player to act in ways not normally available, and assist the mafia or townies as they find most advantageous (i.e. help one side by stating their role reads for the other side, giving explicit advice to one side, etc.).  It makes the Survivor more third-party as opposed to basically town-aligned, and the nature of it is characteristic of the Cheshire Cat, in my opinion.

Quote
You can't really ban role-claiming. At the most, people are still gonna be soft claiming. It also prevents the yomi of claiming a role you don't have, which can be tactically used by both Civ and Mafia.
That's true.  I think allowing ability claiming but not role claiming will be best.

Quote
Seems fine, considering that Civs have 4 player targeting abilities and Mafia have 3 (unless Jabberwocky counts). Just be aware that it'd be a fairly easy way for Civs to steamroll if they killed the Red Queen early (with Alice RCing to get double results unless Mafia sacrifices the Jabberwocky). That would depend on the Civ to Mafia ratio, though. Have you decided on your ideal Civ/Mafia count?
The game will support 20-25 players, so the mafia percentage will be 20%-25%.  If 20% ends up being a bit overwhelming for the mafia, I could add The Red King as a villain and/or split up the King of Hearts' abilities.
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DrWilgy

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2015, 11:36:25 am »
So... I started working on something in my head... Thought I should jot down notes here to see what you think.

Terraria mafia

-26 players-
21 heroes
4 bosses
1 independent

Players have health points. HP will always be restored at the start of day phase.

Heroes:

Heroes can obtain different gear will modify hp and give other abilities.

During the night heroes can travel to different biomes, biomes will range and vary in difficulty. Loot and monsters will be encountered here.

Or

Heroes may choose to attack other players at night.

Or

Heroes may defend themselves at night.

Bosses:

Have btsc and will send someone to preform NK's. The boss that preforms the NK cannot use thier power that night. Will randomly recieve an item of the player night killed. They may only posses one stolen Item at a time and the item will be replaced upon receiving another.

~Moon Lord: cannot be night killed, each day they will select a player. That player's actions the following night will fail.

~Lunatic Cultist: they may use one of each (1 cast per cycle) of the following abilities once per game
1. Lightning - during the day they may target 3 player's. Their hp will be reduced by half until restored.
2. Ice Shards - during the night 3 random heroes will have thier night  actions negated.
3. Illusion - during the night the Lunatic Cultist may remove themself from the following lynch vote.

~Plantera: Once per game, if Plantera were to be killed, the kill will fail. Every other night Plantera will select a player, they will start with 1 extra vote. Plantera's vote will be worth 2 the day after the failed kill takes place.

~Eye of Cthulu: While eye of Cthulu is alive, if any bosses are attacked, they will learn the name of the attacker. If eye of Cthulu is attacked and survives, the attacker will recieve +3 votes the next day. (passive abilities will be stunned if performing the NK)

Independent:

~Traveling Merchant: the traveling merchant will visit a player every day and will be able to trade goods with visited player. If the merchant has traded with every remaining player when the game ends, the merchant wins. The merchant can not be NK'd.

~~~

NK's will not be revealed.

Lynch ties will be decided at random.

The game will also have a End Game vote, where the players can choose to end the game instead of preform a lynch. If the game is ended before all the bosses have been defeated the bosses will win. The game will only be ended by this vote. Lynch votes will always take priority over End Game votes. End Game votes are not affected by modifiers.

Now time to do math and create items, events and stats...
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God damn wiggles, that's one of the best deaths I've had.

Synonym

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2015, 05:18:07 pm »
So... I started working on something in my head... Thought I should jot down notes here to see what you think.

Terraria mafia


Oh, a game by Wiggles? Let's se- TERRARIA?

Closes thread.
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Lustful moans can be heard from the girls bathroom. Several moments pass and Synonym steps out of bathroom wearing only his pants. It seem's that Fleur's Chamber of Secrets isn't such a secret to his wand anymore.

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2015, 08:25:22 pm »
Oh, a game by Wiggles? Let's se- TERRARIA?

Closes thread.

I can't stop playing it, send help.
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God damn wiggles, that's one of the best deaths I've had.

Synonym

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2015, 09:14:19 pm »
I can't stop playing it, send help.

Or a tactical nuke.
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Join us. Baptize yourself in the Brine, and call yourself a Brother of mine.
Lustful moans can be heard from the girls bathroom. Several moments pass and Synonym steps out of bathroom wearing only his pants. It seem's that Fleur's Chamber of Secrets isn't such a secret to his wand anymore.

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2015, 10:09:35 pm »
But it's so much fun.
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Worst Civilian Player, No Write-ups, Worst Overall Player, 0-time MVP, Not an Arena champion, Not a GoC Representative, Complete Egomaniac.

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2016, 06:34:35 pm »
Just chucking down thoughts for a future game that I probably won't run since the Revenge format was perfection.

Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
-14 Civs, 7 Mafia
-Mafia are numbered 1-7
-Mafia only know the identities of Mafia 1 number deviation from their own number (e.g. Number 5 only knows the identities of 4 & 6)
-No Mafia chat
-Godfather is the lowest alive number
-Reminder: Add some cool as shit roles
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2016, 01:48:15 am »
Just chucking down thoughts for a future game that I probably won't run since the Revenge format was perfection.

Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
-14 Civs, 7 Mafia
-Mafia are numbered 1-7
-Mafia only know the identities of Mafia 1 number deviation from their own number (e.g. Number 5 only knows the identities of 4 & 6)
-No Mafia chat
-Godfather is the lowest alive number
-Reminder: Add some cool as shit roles

We need some metrosexual loser to be our main protagonist. @RadicalFuzz, found your role!
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Join us. Baptize yourself in the Brine, and call yourself a Brother of mine.
Lustful moans can be heard from the girls bathroom. Several moments pass and Synonym steps out of bathroom wearing only his pants. It seem's that Fleur's Chamber of Secrets isn't such a secret to his wand anymore.

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2016, 11:51:23 pm »
Just chucking down thoughts for a future game that I probably won't run since the Revenge format was perfection.

Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
-14 Civs, 7 Mafia
-Mafia are numbered 1-7
-Mafia only know the identities of Mafia 1 number deviation from their own number (e.g. Number 5 only knows the identities of 4 & 6)
-No Mafia chat
-Godfather is the lowest alive number
-Reminder: Add some cool as shit roles

I want to play this.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2016, 01:49:37 am »
So has everyone recovered from the x month Mafia burnout? I've got an idea for a 'for fun' game to warm us up before our SRK Fresh Blood game.
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jasonC

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2016, 04:40:58 am »
I'm always down.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2016, 10:40:39 am »
Same
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かえるおねがい!

c:

Pimp Willy

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2016, 10:46:08 am »
Im up for a game. Or Im up for running my "Anything goes" game PogChamp
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Kaz is a better mafia player than I

DrWilgy

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2016, 10:57:46 am »
 I will be out of town for a week... Bit afterwards I'm down!
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God damn wiggles, that's one of the best deaths I've had.

✰Alpha✰

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2016, 07:44:18 am »
TBA

Standard format: Some Mafia, a Doctor, a UC, a Vigi, the usual.

BUT WITH A TWIST.

All players have the Survivor role in addition to their regular role.

AND ANOTHER TWIST.

Anyone that votes for Mafia in the previous Day phase is immune to kills at night.

The less people alive at the end, the more ELO points those people receive.

All of this still needs to be properly balanced, but I just wanted to get the general idea written down somewhere in case I forget.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2016, 07:56:21 am »
Hrm. Not even the mafia want to work together in the end.
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かえるおねがい!

c:

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2016, 12:55:14 pm »
Alpha you don't have to assign everyone survivor, just use the antiquated mafia game type where if you die you don't win and you only win if you're alive town or alive scum.

I mean it's essentially the same thing.

Probably not gonna play that one tho my ELO ;-;
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✰Alpha✰

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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2016, 04:13:26 am »
Matrix12? More like Gaytrix12. Here's a better version of the whole 'figure out the roles as the game progresses' mechanic.

I'm calling this the Analogue format, unless I think of a better name, but Analogue is cool as shit.

BASIC:
Roles are placed in a roulette style image, alternating between Civ and Mafia roles (or not). e.g.



A random number (we'll call this 'steps') is then generated from 2 to x-2 where x is the amount of roles on the board (so for 8 roles on the board, the number would be between 2 and 6). This basically specifies how many roles are in the game. This number is given out publicly (Or is it? If we were to play this game format, we would make it public at least the first time). Addendum: There's no reason this number can't be manually selected by the GM.
A second random number (we'll call this 'starting point') is then generated to dictate which of the roles to start on in the roulette image. So using the example above, Medic would be 1, Godfather would be 2, etc. This number is kept private.

The starting point role is inserted into the game. Going clockwise for the amount of steps specified (including the starting point), all roles stepped on are active in the game.

Using the example above:

The steps (announced publicly) is 5. The starting point is 3. The roles in the game are UC, Enforcer, Vigi, Bomb and Mayor.
Someone flips Enforcer. People now know that the roles can be anything between (Silencer/Medic/Godfather/UC/Enforcer) and (Enforcer/Vigi/Bomb/Mayor/Silencer)
Second person flips Bomb. Now from (Godfather/UC/Enforcer/Vigi/Bomb) to (Enforcer/Vigi/Bomb/Mayor/Silencer). Vigi is confirmed.
Third person flips Mayor. Last role is confirmed to be either UC or Silencer.

The amount of roles on the roulette board can be as many or as little as you like. Note that because of this format, Mafia have an advantage of extra knowlege (knowing a couple of roles in the game to narrow down which Civ roles are active). A bigger board with repeating, randomised roles can be used for extra confusion. ADD SEVERAL POSSIBLE ROULETTE BOARDS FOR EVEN MORE CONFUSION. AT THAT POINT, IT'S FUCKING BINGO.


ADVANCED:
The amount of roles on the board is locked to 12.

The random (or GM selected) number previously used for 'steps' is now used for 'hour'. The number is between 2 (2:00) and 10 (10:00). Oh hey. Analogue.
The random number previously used for 'starting point' is now used to select which role is '12', i.e. the top of the clock.
The time is announced publicly, with one hand on the starting point (12) and another hand on the hour. The image isn't shown with hands on it, it's just to help visualise. That would spoil which role is 12.
A coin flip then decides whether the roles will be selected clockwise or anti-clockwise. If clockwise, all roles from 12 to the hour in a clockwise direction are in play. Vice versa. The coin flip is kept private.
So essentially, 7:00 means there are either 5 or 7 roles in the game. ADDED COMPLEXITY.


I can imagine reading all of that would be confusing as shit, but it's something that would be easier to understand by playing it rather than reading it.

Also just a general disclaimer for all my posts in this thread. Anyone is free to use any of the ideas I come up with. I'm unlikely to run a Mafia game for a long time, and when I do, it'll probably be a remaster of Revenge. I'll change the theme to be something more people know of and there will be a few roles I wanna tweak (primarily Sammy and Margaux/Gideon).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 05:31:31 am by ✰Alpha✰ »
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2016, 08:35:06 pm »
I was thinking about hosting a horror-themed mafia game. I'd like to do a few unique things. Since no last gasps is a thing now I thought I'd combine the lovers and detective roles. I'd also like to make it harder for the mafia to lurk and do nothing. The godfather would be able to mask his alignment but he could only do it a certain number of times and only to a certain point. The forger wouldn't be able to forge himself or the godfather after a certain number of phases either.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2016, 01:05:25 am »
All those balance changes sound hugely Civilian favoured. Although with a horror theme, I'd imagine you'd have some OP Mafia roles to balance that out anyway. Would be really interested to see how you'd make lurking harder and what other unique things you'd have in mind.

I did run a game (Revenge) where the Detective (Nolan) could become a lover, but the other lover (Louise) had to submit a search on them first.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2016, 06:36:06 am »
Well those were my biggest and best ideas  :P. I'm open to suggestions. One lover having to search for the other one is a good one. How did the results for that work?
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2016, 02:19:09 pm »
Well those were my biggest and best ideas  :P. I'm open to suggestions. One lover having to search for the other one is a good one. How did the results for that work?

It was actually really awesome. The game thread's here: http://jesustoastmafia.com/index.php/topic,437.0.html

(I did my usual thing of procrastinating on write-ups, but that's not important.)

The role was actually one that could find either the UC or what was essentially the Mafia UC. Whichever one they found, they were put into a PM with them and they joined the team the UC was affiliated with. The role actually managed to search for the Civ UC on Night 1, so they got a lot of benefit from that. Here's the Lovers' chat if you're interested: http://jesustoastmafia.com/index.php/topic,446.0.html

Really proud of that game and would like to run it again someday (with minor tweaks), so feel free to use anything for inspiration.

If you wanna post what you've got in terms of the game format (numbers, roles, etc.), feel free to post it and we'll take a look at it. Hell, you could bring back LGs if you really wanted to.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2016, 07:27:31 pm »
I'm just going to type ideas as they come to me. Tell me what you think:

No last gasps but there would be a psychic or something who could talk to the dead but their ability would be weakened due so they'd only be able to contact 3 people. They'd also get a last gasp.

A necromancer who could bring temporarily bring back someone back for the dead.

No godfather for mafia. They'd vote on who to kill as a group.

One of the lovers could chose to sacrifice them self to resurrect/save their partner. This would give the returning player a boost and make them a jack of all trades. They'd only be able to use one ability only once though.

The mafia could chose to sacrifice one of their own in order to summon an unstoppable beast that can ignore civilian-based abilities. Nurse protection? Nope. Investigation? Fuck out of here!

If the mafia can correctly guess 3 civilian roles then they'll lose those abilities.

If the U.C. dies before revealing their list then there would be a 50% chance for the mafia to "find" it and alter it/destroy it. 
 
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2016, 07:18:57 am »
k let's see.

There's no real reason for the psychic to talk to any non-investigative roles, so it'd be easy for them to save their power and for the UC to hold on to their results. It's essentially a bulletproof for the UC.

Necromancer sounds cool.

No godfather could be interesting, but most of the time, Mafia kills are unanimous anyway. Still a good idea.

There's no reason for the alive lover not to sacrifice themselves in exchange for a confirmed roleless (unless they're selfish).

Would be interested to see more fleshing out of the 'unstoppable beast' idea.

The 'guess 3 roles' thing might be interesting, but the reward seems a little low (unless they can guess roleless). Usually if they guess 3 roles, they all die, but this was used in the past for role madness games to stop everyone from claiming.

So a UC whose list is released on death with possible tampering? Might be cool.

Overall, some interesting ideas, but keep in mind how people would play those roles.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2016, 12:20:56 pm »
k let's see.

There's no real reason for the psychic to talk to any non-investigative roles, so it'd be easy for them to save their power and for the UC to hold on to their results. It's essentially a bulletproof for the UC.

Necromancer sounds cool.

No godfather could be interesting, but most of the time, Mafia kills are unanimous anyway. Still a good idea.

There's no reason for the alive lover not to sacrifice themselves in exchange for a confirmed roleless (unless they're selfish).

Would be interested to see more fleshing out of the 'unstoppable beast' idea.

The 'guess 3 roles' thing might be interesting, but the reward seems a little low (unless they can guess roleless). Usually if they guess 3 roles, they all die, but this was used in the past for role madness games to stop everyone from claiming.

So a UC whose list is released on death with possible tampering? Might be cool.

Overall, some interesting ideas, but keep in mind how people would play those roles.

What if the psychic didn't get a last gasp and she died before the UC? Would the role work better that way? What if the UC has to reveal himself to her publicly?

Cool.

Cool.

What if the 2 lovers didn't know who the other one was?

I'd need some help "putting him together", like a Frankenstein monster.

What if every one had a specific role even if they didn't have a special ability like Missing Person was Sally Jenkins. Radiculfuzz was Hughie McDugglestick, etc.

UC list tampering would definitely allow for some shenanigans.
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Re: Game Design/Balancing Thread
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2016, 03:38:01 am »
What if the psychic didn't get a last gasp and she died before the UC? Would the role work better that way? What if the UC has to reveal himself to her publicly?

Cool.

Cool.

What if the 2 lovers didn't know who the other one was?

I'd need some help "putting him together", like a Frankenstein monster.

What if every one had a specific role even if they didn't have a special ability like Missing Person was Sally Jenkins. Radiculfuzz was Hughie McDugglestick, etc.

UC list tampering would definitely allow for some shenanigans.

Those ideas for the Psychic could work, but that last part gave me an idea. What if the psychic could target a person each Night and was put into a PM with them when they eventually die? No guaranteed UC conversation, but there's a possibility to talk to strong players that are killed early. Would mean that the targeted people wouldn't be allowed in the Losers' Lounge tho.

That kinda defeats the purpose of the lovers, but it wouldn't make a difference anyway, since the write-up reveals roles on death, then the other lover just has to activate it. If you want to keep the Lover sacrifice theme in, you could make it something like "If a Lover sacrifices themselves, the other Lover's lynch votes count for 3 votes. The other Lover's identity remains hidden and additional votes do not show up in the vote tally".

As for a 'putting together' idea, what about something like sacrificing a member to double the power on another member? Could be useful in certain situations. So for example, if they sacrifice their Enforcer, another Mafia member can Enforce twice a Night from that point on. If you wanted to add even more rules to the sacrifice, you could make it so that only one Mafia member (the monster) can receive the sacrificed ability.

Well with the '3 role' ability in play, there's little reason for someone to reveal their roleless character's name. I can see that working if you added some sort of Mafia investigative role that gave the name of the character of a Player, but it'd have to have limited stocks.

Don't have to use any of these ideas, just trying to give some inspiration.
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